Jay Ruderman:

Welcome to All About Change.

Today, my guest is Alexis Tutunnique. Alexis is a ballet dancer, a graduate of the Kyiv National Ballet School, and a first soloist for a number of dance companies. After dancing in Ukraine, Russia, and Ukraine again through the 2010s, Alexis found himself in exile, living in the Netherlands after Russia invaded his home country. There, Alexis joined up with other Ukrainian ballet dancers as the United Ukrainian Ballet Company. They’ve danced across Europe and North America, raising funds and awareness for Ukraine’s war effort. They’re also the subject of a brand new documentary called Front Row, in which Alexis befriends and invites Sasha, a former Ukrainian soldier who lost his legs in a bombing, to join the dance troupe to perform in LA. Alexis Tutunnique, thank you so much for being my guest on All About Change.

Alexis Tutunnique:

Thank you. Thank you for the invitation.

Jay Ruderman:

There are scenes in the documentary, Front Row, where various members of the dance troupe work through the idea that dance is a crucial part of the war effort. What was it like for you when you realized that dancing was not just dancing but is also an activist statement?

Alexis Tutunnique:

Russia has long been engaged in cultural warfare, and alongside with other instruments and other channels of influence to spread their narratives and propaganda. And especially with ballet, many people see ballet as a pure art or something beyond politics. But the truth and reality we live in, that the Kremlin has long weaponized cultural institutions like the Bolshoi and Mariinsky theaters to shape their global perceptions, manipulate narratives, and even protect their political interests. And for Russia, ballet, it’s a cultural trademark. And Kremlin actively promote them to create a positive global image of Russia, distract the world from its human rights violation and military aggression. And while Russian forces invade sovereign countries, not only Ukraine, actually, Russian ballet companies continue to tour internationally, softening the country’s reputation. These performance serve as a subtle diplomatic missions, reinforce the idea that Russia remains a respected cultural power despite it war crimes.

Jay Ruderman:

Front Row, which is a documentary on the company that you’re part of touring around the world as a Ukrainian ballet company-

Video:

[Foreign language 00:02:43].

Jay Ruderman:

It’s clear throughout the movie that not only are you performing around the world and proudly as a Ukrainian ballet company, but you all have ties to family members who are on the front lines fighting the war against Russia. So were you and your company members aware that you were representing your country, that you were in somehow opposition to the prominence of Russian art and Russian ballet out in the world?

Alexis Tutunnique:

Yeah, because with United Ukrainian Ballet, the company’s more than just a ballet company. It’s a cultural force that spreads awareness about Ukraine’s struggle. And with United Ukrainian Ballet [inaudible 00:04:02] Foundation, we’re keeping Ukrainian culture alive and raising awareness and support, at the same time, countering Russian cultural propaganda. And performing internationally with UUB, we ensure that Ukrainian ballet and artistic tradition remained visible and vibrant country, because it’s one of the main target of Russia to raise Ukrainian identity, cultural identity.

And with our performance, as we raise awareness and support for the communities around the world … With our project, we don’t see some push-backs, but I know some situations and stories from my colleagues, not only in the ballet, but also in acting, in opera, in orchestra, when their performances were canceled because of the Russian influence. Because Russian oligarchs, which is close to the Kremlin, they use ballet as a shield, donating for the ballet institutions, some festivals, cultural foundations, some performances. They legitimize themselves in the Western countries, getting social and political connections that help them avoid sanctions. And what I understand also from the stories of my colleague that there was situations when these oligarchs or some businessmen providing funds for some Western institutions or festivals or venues, there was influence on these Western companies to block the possibility for Ukrainian artists to perform there and to promote Ukrainian art and culture.

Jay Ruderman:

What was it like before the war? I mean, you’ve been to Russia, you’ve had connections to Russia. How has that been since the war? Have those connections just ceased? Do you no longer speak to Russian friends?

Alexis Tutunnique:

So I was working in Russia most of my career. In the beginning I spent there seven years, and five of these years I spent with Mariinsky Theater. I was young and stupid. I was not paying attention to the politic, actually. And for me, it was only ballet and career, and I was concentrate on my career in the ballet world. So I was really not into any issues, situations, war, conflict, nothing. And actually, I came to Petersburg, it was few months before the Revolution of Dignity in Ukraine. And then, yeah, we all know what’s happened.

Then our former president, which was Ukrainian President Yanukovych, was a puppet of Putin. He ran away. And then it was a reason for Russia to invade Ukraine to occupy this part of Ukraine and ex-Crimea. And even during that time, I remember I was very concerned about that because of course it’s my country, and also the Revolution of Dignity, it’s a place where all my family been. And I remember my colleagues in Mariinsky, they was asking me, questioning me, “What is going on, what’s happened?” Because I remember at that time, I was also watching Russian news. And it was crazy huge propaganda because they say, for example, that revolution which we had, it’s sponsored by United States, which was completely untrue, because as I say, all of my family have been [inaudible 00:07:24]. And they go [inaudible 00:07:25] in this Revolution to protest against the corruption against dictatorial regimes, which has started to spread all around Ukraine because of Putin’s puppet. And nobody was paid. My parents was not paid to stay there.

And yeah, I remember I was explaining that to my colleagues. And after that, even some people from the company management started to come to me and tried to sneaky, picky, get information from me about my position, about the situation. It was not very scary, but it was a bit scary and dangerous because I understanding that I can have some problems. In Russia, there is no freedom of speech. You are very loyal to the regime or you are in prison. So I was quite careful because also, as I say, at that time I was being more into my career, dance and performances, and in Mariinsky, it was quite tough because we was working 24/7 every day. So most of the time, you even don’t have time to think about something else.

I don’t have so much friends in Russia after working there. Most of my friends there was all Ukrainians, or I have friends from Great Britain, Xander Parish, who actually left Russia after Russia invade Ukraine, after full scale invasion. And actually, most of my friends, people like my colleagues who I can call friends, they left Russia when Russia invade Ukraine, 2022. And some of my colleagues who still work in Russia, we all block each other, because they was completely brainwashed. Some of them even wrote me some messages like, “We come to save yourself from yourself,” some bullshit like that. And there was even one message from one dancer from Michalowski Theater, he write me that … I don’t remember the correct word he said, but it was something about when Russian soldiers will kill me, to put me down or to make me free, or something like that. Unfortunately, they’re brainwashed, or they’re just following this propaganda of this regime because they have some business ties with government with this regime. So that is unfortunately the truth.

Jay Ruderman:

First of all, I would urge everyone to watch Front Row, but there is a very powerful element where a soldier who has lost both of his legs, he’s a double amputee, and decides that he wants to become part of the ballet troop. There’s some tension within the troop about whether he can perform or whether he can’t perform. And you develop such a close relationship with him. What did that add to the performance of the troop, having a soldier who’s a double amputee become part of the show?

Alexis Tutunnique:

I mean, first of all, of course for me, he’s a hero. He’s a person who sacrificed his life, his health, to defend our country, our freedom, our identity. When we first time met each other, I felt as a family. He became for me as a brother. We find a connection very fast. And as I say, for me, he’s a huge inspiration because his very positive way of thinking, and he’s very active and very [inaudible 00:10:56]. And he’s after performance, because I invite him on performance, so we watch together Giselle of Alexei Ratmansky. And after this performance, he tells me, “I’m so inspired by your performance,” because it was his first time in a ballet.

And at the same time, he came on the stage to see our dancers and say thanks for them. And at the same time, he inspired them. So it was a very huge and deep synergy between dancers and Oleksandr. And it was the beginning of the close relation, not only between me and Sasha, but also between him and the ballet company, because after that, he tell me, “[inaudible 00:11:40] I want to go on a stage to perform.” I was like, “Okay, let’s think about that,” because I mean, it’s very brave, but we need to think how we can create which kind of choreography, how can adapt it that it will be comfortable for him, because he never danced before. Then it’s like just starting like step by step, layer by layer. And first, we did together with a production of the Front Row. We did this incredible photo shoot with Zahrir Asfani, together with dancers. And after we made this … Oh actually, when we did with Zahrir this photo shoot, actually, it was the idea that we will combine this photo shoot with some video recording where Sasha will dance.

Video:

There you go. Wow.

[Foreign language 00:12:32].

Oh, you have a really good hand, really ballet hand.

Geez.

Yeah, so classical.

Alexis Tutunnique:

And he was dance, actually. I don’t know if this recording, we still have. But after that, he come to me and he said, “[inaudible 00:13:06] but it’s not what I want to do. I want to really go on a stage and dance full ballet.” And I was like, “Okay, okay, let’s do that. Let’s think about that.” And then we invite Emma Evelein, this incredible, beautiful girl choreographer from [inaudible 00:13:23] and she created a beautiful piece, which was shown for the first time … we shown in Orange County, in the Segerstrom Center, after the main performance of Giselle, Alexei Ratmansky. It was incredible. There was 3,000 seats in audience, and all of the people was deeply touched by this performance by this heroic entrance on a stage of a wounded soldier. It’s just this situation and the story, and the war in Ukraine is became closer to the people, to the audience in the United States who visit our performance.

Jay Ruderman:

I think it’s a very powerful scene in California. I mean, not only are people showing up to watch a wonderful performance and to support a troop from Ukraine, but also at the end, you have this scene with a soldier who was severely wounded fighting for his country. And the emotion in the room, I mean, you can feel it through the screen, was so powerful. And I just have to give credit to the choreographer and to the troop and to the acceptance of pulling him in. And I think it leads, especially as the war continues on, a very powerful impression of the impact of cultural activism on a situation that’s affecting millions and millions of people. I want to just say congratulations on that and for being part of that. 

Jay Ruderman:

Let me ask you about the limits of cultural activism: is there a point when you say to yourself that you need to do more? And what do you think would be the next step for you?

Alexis Tutunnique:

The experience which I had, I think there are no limits in general, but there is boundaries, because we need to be selective and careful about where and how we promote the truth about the war in Ukraine through the soft power, through the ballet art, because not everyone is willing to get involved in this. And I’m talking about the ballet producers and venue representatives, because someone, as I mentioned previously, is influenced by Russia propaganda or because they have some commercial ties with Russia or because they just have their own personal beliefs. So we must be conscious in our activism so we don’t lose potential platforms for connecting with the public. So sometimes it shouldn’t be just, “Oh, here we are, Ukrainian dancers promoting Ukraine, Ukraine, Ukraine, Ukraine.”

I mean, I see with time, people around the world, they’re tired from that. And I mean, of course it’s very sad, but I understand these people. So we need to find another way to bring attention to the problematic of the war in Ukraine. Not with screaming louder, but through some smart ways, creating some high-end gala concerts where we’ll perform not only dancers from Ukraine but worldwide, but connecting it, but not so loudly with money-raising to support humanitarian aids in Ukraine, but also combined with some other humanitarian aids in other countries, because there is many destruction in the world.

That’s the situation what we have now. And about my next steps, I just try to not give into emotions and move forward in my career, so that through success in my work field, I can influence the opinion of people involved in the ballet art, or in art in general. Because quite often, I’ve been invited on some performances as a guest principal or on some gala concerts, or even just as a guest to the audience, to some artistic performances, not only ballet. And it’s good to meet with people, very important people, quite often, including politicians, on a backstage in [inaudible 00:17:54], as we say, and to talk to them personally about the situation and the problematic of the war in Ukraine.

Jay Ruderman:

What about the tension? Were there any members of the troop that felt like, “Okay, I’m serving my country, I’m representing my country, I’m dancing and I’m around the world performing, but maybe I should be fighting?”

Alexis Tutunnique:

Most of the time, I think not only me, but most of the Ukrainian boys, especially in our company, that’s what I know, feel very concerned and like, “Am I doing right to be not in Ukraine on the front line with my friends and my colleagues who is there now? Is it right to be here in a safe place in comfortable conditions and doing what we do?” And you always question yourself about that. This moment, it’s quite heavy. And I remember, when you question yourself about that, there is always an answer sent by God. And for example, there was an answer with Sasha [inaudible 00:19:04] and when he tells to all of the dancers, including me, that the work we did and do, it is very important and it’s very influential and very impactful.

Yeah, because as I say, ballet is a soft power, which not only Russia used, but we also use it to bring attention and awareness about the war in Ukraine, and at the same time raising the money for humanitarian aids. And at the same time, I know many dancers, including me, we personally also donate for our friends who is in the military, to help them to buy all the necessary equipments. So in that case, I understand that while we are useful for Ukraine and as a support line for the frontline for the soldiers there, I think there is a reason to be here. When we don’t have an opportunity to help our country abroad, then there is a time to go back.

Jay Ruderman:

Over two years ago, you said Ukraine had already won the war on account of its strengthened national identity. And when the fighting eventually is over, how do you think you’ll describe your contribution to the Ukrainian war effort?

Alexis Tutunnique:

At that moment, when I say that, like many Ukrainians, I felt a sense of victory, both national and international, because of the unity that Russian invasion, military aggression has provoked. Now honestly, it’s quite difficult for me to speak about any sense of victory, considering how many lives have been lost in this war and how much blood has been spilled and how many people and their families has been suffered and their lives been destroyed by Russia. It’s very hard to even use the word of victory after all of that. I’m sorry to say that, but also, especially when I see and now with new government in United States, United States for us is a country we relied on and whose values we shared and continue to share. And so much blood has been shed in Ukraine, and now a new government in US trying to take the side of the aggressor, forgiving all of the war crimes committed on pro-American territory. So yeah, I mean, I’m quite concerned about the term of victory.

Jay Ruderman:

But Alexis, I want to tell you that what impresses me about your activism is, yes, you’re fully aware and your colleagues in the troop are fully aware of the sacrifices of their families and the fighting that’s going on. But you have the opportunity to travel the world and you have the opportunity to represent your country. And at every performance at the end, the Ukrainian flag is held up.

And you’re influencing so many people, and you don’t know who those people are. You don’t know what type of political connections they have, what type of financial resources they have, what impact your performance is going to have on inspiring them to get involved in helping your people. So it’s not that one part is more important than the other. One part may carry more danger, but your cultural activism is a form of diplomacy. And so I want to applaud you for everything that you’ve done and for what you’ve gone through in your life, I mean, as someone who spent a lot of time in Russia and really had those ties severed and came out as a strong advocate for his country at a time of real need. And I don’t want to diminish what you’ve done.

Alexis Tutunnique:

Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you. I just want to say thanks to you and to bring light and keep talking about war in Ukraine, because it’s very important. It’s very important to keep people aware, and I mean, people in the Western countries aware about this horrific situation which we have. I mean, like always, I just want to thanks to our defenders and to God that he defend our defenders.

Jay Ruderman:

Well, Alexis, I really thank you for being my guest on All About Change, for telling your story, for doing what you’ve done for your country. And I wish you to go from strength to strength. So thank you so much.

Alexis Tutunnique:

Thank you. Thank you so much for invitation and for highlighting Ukrainian war.

Jay Ruderman:

Thank you so much for listening to All About Change. Today’s episode was produced by Tani Levitt and Mijon Zulu. To check out more episodes or learn more about the show, you can visit our website, allaboutchangepodcast.com. If you like our show, spread the word, tell a friend or family member, or leave us a review on your favorite podcasting app. We’d really appreciate it. All About Change is produced by the Ruderman Family Foundation. That’s all for now. I’m Jay Ruderman, and we’ll see you soon with another episode of All About Change.