Jay Ruderman:

Welcome to All About Change. Today my guest is Ashlyn So. Ashlyn is a rising star in the design world. At 16, she’s already shown collections at New York Fashion Week and Paris Fashion Week, but she’s so much more than that. Ashlyn combines her fashion with activism and believes that fashion gives people an identity and a voice. She’s spoken out against bullying and AAPI hate, and has used her sewing skills to make over a thousand masks for frontline workers at the outset of the COVID-19 pandemic. It brings me great joy to learn from the next generation of activists. So Ashlyn, welcome to All About Change.

Ashlyn So:

Thank you so much for having me.

Jay Ruderman:

So back in 2021, you called yourself an accidental activist. Do you think that someone is born to be an activist, or does a person simply step into that role when injustice is in front of them?

Ashlyn So:

I definitely think that being an activist is not something that I ever intended to, or anyone ever says, oh, I want to be an activist. I feel like it’s definitely something you step into. For me personally, it was back in 2021. I saw a lot of hate and just a lot of injustice happening in my own community, in my own city, and it felt like the first time I’ve ever seen anything like it, the first time I’ve ever seen people getting hurt, there’s people that I knew that I looked like. So this was very shocking to me because my parents had never shown me anything like this. So seeing that for the first time, I was like, there’s no way I’m going to let this happen in my community. I have to do something about it.

And whether it’s something super small or something like a rally, I wanted to just get people together in my community and almost just a very small like, raise awareness to the situation because I didn’t think many people knew about it at the time. So I organized my first rally then, and that was the first time I ever did any public speaking because I was very shy. I was very young. Stepping into a space like that was very different for me, especially because I’ve never done anything really putting myself out there like that. But I didn’t feel like that at the time because I felt like it was for something else. Even though I was super shy, I felt like I had the power to speak about this issue. I was given a voice and I have to use it. And I feel like that’s something so important to other people as well and lots of other activists, I think they feel similar ways, just being able to use what you have and really empower other people with it.

Jay Ruderman:

So let’s talk about Asian hate. You come from the San Francisco area?

Ashlyn So:

Yes, I do.

Jay Ruderman:

And there was an explosion of hate against Asian Americans, specifically against older people.

Ashlyn So:

Yes.

Jay Ruderman:

Can you talk about what happened and maybe some of your personal connections to some of the people that were injured?

Ashlyn So:

Yeah, so the first I think incident I ever saw was Amy Ratanapakdee’s dad who got shoved on the street. And that was completely shocking to me because first of all, in my culture, honoring elders, respecting elders is a huge thing and they are the pillars of our community and we have so much respect for them. And the fact that seeing anyone hurt like that for just no reason was completely shocking. And I think it hurt and shocked everyone in the community, and especially I think Asian Americans, they don’t like to speak up or they don’t like to do anything about situations.

But with this specifically, I saw people that never used to speak up or never used to want to do anything come up into the community. Personally, I knew that if I ever saw my grandma or my grandpa ever getting hurt like that, I would literally be shattered. When I first organized the rally, that was the first time I ever saw my old classmates, their parents, who said, “Oh, we can’t come out.” Especially because it was during Covid. “It’s unsafe, we don’t really want to, but we really do support your cause.” They ended up coming to the rally with their family and what I saw was lots of kids too. I think creating that family safe space and being able to just bring your kids to that was almost very, very touching to me because I saw that everybody really wanted to help. And it wasn’t just about rallies or anything, it was about just being a community of change.

Clip:

Recently there have been many attacks against Asians and Asian elders. So today we’re going to raise awareness for this cause and stand up for Asians. I started looking into this and I found out that many of these cases are not reported as hate crimes and this wasn’t okay.

Ashlyn So:

I met this self-defense teacher who begins teaching self-defense classes to elders and everyone was doing everything they could, and I think that’s what was really special about it, and it gave everyone a chance to rise up together and create a space to really fight back against all the hate that was happening.

Jay Ruderman:

And wasn’t there an issue where the authorities were not prosecuting-

Ashlyn So:

Yes.

Jay Ruderman:

Or starting the prosecution process and looking at this as a hate crime?

Ashlyn So:

Yeah. After the rally, I was very close with Amy Ratanapakdee who had… And I still think she’s continuing to try to get the prosecution as a hate crime. It’s such a long process and everyone keeps denying it or just not acknowledging the fact that it is a hate crime. Even with all the movements that she’s done, she’s protested in front of City Hall, really reached out to London Breed and tried to get a specific crime prosecuted, it was still very hard to, and I think it is still a process that she’s going through.

Jay Ruderman:

So I want to talk a little bit about you and fashion. You’re sort of a prodigy. You started at a Montessori school learning how to sew. At a very early age, you were very creative. You were at New York Fashion Week and Paris Fashion Week. Where did that come from? Because I’ve heard interviews with your mother and father and they’re like, “It’s not from us,” but they backed you. Where did that love of fashion come from?

Ashlyn So:

So I think for me it was just a very small thing in Montessori school, but I used to make these little ornaments and we would hand sew them for Christmas and stuff, or just little stuffed animals that we made and just being able to hand sew, it was super special to me. So I asked my mom from when I was like six to eight to take me to sewing class and just to learn how to sew. And when she finally let me, I literally just fell in love with fashion and I did one class and ever since then I’ve fell in love with it and I did it at home and I started creating my own things and just designing. And I feel like it’s such an amazing space to be in because I love being creative and I love bringing something new into this world. Yeah, it was just an amazing process in general that I fell in love.

Jay Ruderman:

And your fashion is so unique. I mean, I’ve never seen anything like it with the top design, like a sail of a Chinese ship. There’s a meaning in your fashion. You’re trying to get a message out, so you’re integrating your activism in your fashion. Can you talk a little bit about that, about how you combine the two?

Ashlyn So:

After 2020, I started my new collection for New York Fashion Week, and I felt that I wanted to combine my fashion and my activism together. I took inspiration from the community that I saw that was being built and I was like, I want to make a collection inspired by this because it’s such a beautiful movement. Yeah, so I kind of got inspiration from Bruce Lee’s quote, “Be like water,” and I wanted to make it a collection that was about going against stereotypes and really kind of how everyone is fluid and everyone is water and everyone’s different and we should be celebrating that in each of our own ways.

So I created a very couture, sculptural kind of collection that was representing water. Ever since then, yeah, I’ve wanted to make all my collections have a certain meaning to it because fashion to me is something that everyone wears. It’s a pillar of our everyday lives and being able to express yourself through fashion is a huge thing and I wanted to use my pieces as conversation starters, so when people would wear my clothing, I would want them to talk about the meaning behind it and be able to spark a new conversation with a new person.

Jay Ruderman:

You’re making all of these dresses by yourself in your own studio.

Ashlyn So:

Yes.

Jay Ruderman:

Which are very unique. I know I remember you talking about using your culture, the bowls that are blue and white and using those colors.

Ashlyn So:

Yeah.

Jay Ruderman:

Can you talk about a little bit about how your culture is woven into your design?

Ashlyn So:

Yeah. So I really wanted to take what I knew about my culture and I really wanted to put it into my designs and I really wanted to get inspired by that. So I would remember when I was at my grandma’s house, she would always make us fried rice and it would always be in these porcelain bowls. So I made my entire collection blue and white to represent porcelain. And then yeah, there’s different elements in the collection. Like you said earlier, the Chinese sails. I created a top inspired by that and I see a lot of everyday kind of objects and things and I really am able to create it into a design and that’s kind of what inspires me.

Jay Ruderman:

Your designs have grown from your early line for children enchanted winter forest to your more mature recent collections, and we’ve seen you grow in maturity in terms of your fashion, but it seemed like in terms of activism, you were almost fully formed as soon as you became an activist and you took on race-based hate and public health. Do you think your activism will grow in the same way that your fashion has grown?

Ashlyn So:

Yeah, I definitely think so. I think the spaces that I’ve gotten into through activism has definitely grew and changed. I think in the beginning it was literally just me and then my family helping me plan the rally in one week because it was such an urgent situation that I just felt like, yes, we need to do it now, now, now, as soon as possible. But then throughout time I’ve been able to meet so many other fellow activists and organizations and just leaders in the community who have inspired me so much in so many different ways. And I think just like the way my fashion has grew, I feel like my activism has as well. I’ve been getting into more of the mental health space especially with my most recent collection. Yeah, I don’t know. I think I’m very inspired by the people around me and how they’ve been able to make change.

Jay Ruderman:

Right. How do you deal with the mental health issue because you’re a younger person and you’re on social media and you’re outspoken and there’s so much hate out there. And I remember listening to your mother who said, “Listen, I take a lot of that stuff away so she doesn’t see that.” I don’t know if she’s still doing that, but how do you deal with that pressure?

Ashlyn So:

I definitely think that there’s lots of pressure, especially being a teenager and then kind of putting myself out there. Yeah, I’m very grateful to her because she has shielded me from a lot of hate, especially when I was younger. But I think now that I’m older, it’s easier to get in that hate, especially from my peers and stuff. And I think dealing with that is definitely hard. It’s something that I’m still working on. And same with mental health, it’s something that I’m still working on and still on a journey of, but I think just being able to be surrounded by loving and positive people and just being able to remember or practicing self-worth and self affirmations has been very helpful. Being able to just make sure that who you’re with and who you’re surrounded with is very intentional.

Jay Ruderman:

Yeah, I think getting back to what we talked about about being shy. There’s this feeling like activists have a tough skin, but they don’t all have a tough skin. The bullying does get to you, but I do feel like when you think of the cause as much higher than you and you were put into a situation, given the platform and you’re using it, maybe it can give you a little bit… Like, well, it’s not about me. People might be attacking me, but it’s really not about me know they’re mad at some other reason of what I’m saying or what I represent. I mean, at least for me, I think that that helps me a little bit.

Ashlyn So:

Yeah, definitely.

Jay Ruderman:

And what about being in school? Because you’re still in school. I mean, you have success beyond your peers. Do you deal with bullying at all and how have you been able to deal with that?

Ashlyn So:

Yeah, definitely. I think not just from my school but from people around me. Yeah, there’s definitely a lot of hate coming at me. It’s still an issue that I’m dealing with, but I think with every day it gets better because like you said, it isn’t about me. It’s about a bigger cause and it’s about something that I want to change. And if people are mad about that, they’re not mad at me and I have to remind myself of that. And I think dealing with it is definitely hard. You have to keep your circle so small. Just being able to remind yourself that you love yourself and you have loving people around you, yeah, it makes everything easier, I guess.

Jay Ruderman:

I saw a video of you when you were really young and you were doing an interview and it was very emotional for you.

Ashlyn So:

Yeah.

Jay Ruderman:

Is it better now?

Ashlyn So:

Definitely not. I feel like I am such an emotional person for some reason, especially talking about vulnerable things, but I think I’ve grown to accept it more. Talking about real things makes me emotional, but that’s okay. I kind of learned to accept that. I definitely think that I’ve grown a lot though and I’ve healed a lot and in those ways it’s gotten a lot better.

Jay Ruderman:

So Ashlyn, I want to take you back to what happened during Covid with the Asian hate and organizing the rally. How were you able to organize a rally so quickly, get so many people involved, but more importantly, we see a lot of rallies that are very violent and very hateful. And from what I saw, the rally that you did was very peaceful. People came together, there was sort of a message of love, that we have something to say, but we’re not going to be violent and lash out. Was that something that was done intentionally? How did you organize a large rally and keep it safe at the same time?

Ashlyn So:

That was something that was very intentional. From the beginning, we wanted it to be all about love and unity and something that was very community based, something that was very family oriented. So yeah, the first rally I ever organized was super, super fast. It was just in one week because of the urgent situation and the urgent need. I think from the start, it was important to set that intention of what is the rally about? The rally was about standing for Asians and standing up. So that’s what I wanted to do. I set that clear intention.

And then afterwards, it’s all about logistics and stuff, making sure to get the permits, finding location, and I wanted to do it in my community park because it is a very family area and it is a perfect place to just spread that message along with a big street on the side to really spread the message to people driving around and stuff. After that, we wanted to make sure that people in the community knew about it. So we reached out to lots of speakers and people who are already in the space and to get them to come out and to talk about their different perspectives because I think it’s also important to have different people speak. And then afterwards we wanted to make sure the media knew about it because it was important to spread that message. And so I posted it on Nextdoor and I had a lot of people come out as families, news people coming as well. And I think I wanted to keep it very loving and very peaceful. So I wanted to make sure that everyone who was coming was families or just a very community oriented rally.

Jay Ruderman:

It sounds like a lot of work.

Ashlyn So:

Yeah.

Jay Ruderman:

And it came together very quickly. I’ve always believed that most people are fair and just and they react to injustice.

Ashlyn So:

Yes.

Jay Ruderman:

Did you find that the rally had an impact?

Ashlyn So:

I definitely think it had an impact. I think after that, I noticed just lots more rallies happening and lots of people coming out to speak who would never speak before, and I had a lot of younger kids come up to me and they felt so inspired and they wanted to speak up as well. And I think change comes from many different places and I think different self changes and different realizations and just being able to grow is super important. And yeah, I did notice that from the rally. Afterwards, I noticed people who would never do these things before were able to adapt and change and they wanted to do something. And I noticed how just afterwards, there was just so many more. Weekend after weekend, there was protests and rallies and they were all very much more peaceful than I had seen before and I hope to have a little bit of impact and change in the community in that way.

Jay Ruderman:

Did you notice a difference as a result of these rallies that the level of attacks on Asian Americans went down after these rallies?

Ashlyn So:

I think after a while it definitely did because people were finally speaking up about it, about this issue. But I think also the long-term solutions were much more impactful as well. We were able to get the Asian-American studies kind of implemented, and I’ll notice people talking about the railroad workers and I’ll be literally so happy because you knew about that, you learned about that in school. That’s a change that we were able to be a part of. Just knowing about that, it makes me super happy to know that we’ve made a little bit of impact.

Jay Ruderman:

So you’re saying that before this activism, what you were learning in school, what others were learning in school about the history of Asian Americans in America was not widely known, and then after that you were able to influence the curriculum at least in your school and maybe other schools to learn about the history of Asian Americans in America?

Ashlyn So:

Yeah, I definitely think so. And it was not just me, it was the whole community being able to do everything they could to implement these studies. When I was in middle school and elementary school, I had learned nothing about Asian Americans, and I had only known about the railroad workers because of a substitute teacher who saw the curriculum, and he was like, there’s nothing about us in here. So he decided to go against the book and teach us about it. And I immediately came home and told my parents, did you know about this?

Jay Ruderman:

Did they?

Ashlyn So:

They did know about it, but I didn’t know about it. And they’re like, “Oh, you didn’t learn about this? That’s weird. They should be teaching you this.” Especially because at the time, I was going to a school that taught two languages and it was Chinese and then also English, but we still didn’t learn about Asian American studies. So then now even I’m hearing people talk about it and I get so proud and I’m so happy that they know about this situation.

Jay Ruderman:

So Ashlyn, let’s talk a little bit about your projects that you’re working on now. How have they changed and what’s your direction in terms of fashion? Because now you’re going to be going from high school to college. What are your dreams?

Ashlyn So:

Well, I hope to build an amazing fashion brand and I hope to create a couture luxury brand. And I think, yeah, definitely I have to go to college, but I think throughout, I still want to be able to continue to build my business and I want to build it in a very intentional way. I still want to have my messages of love and unity implemented into my fashion and still have fashion as a conversation starter.

Jay Ruderman:

What’s the future of your activism?

Ashlyn So:

I think it’s going to take me in many different ways, but I think right now mental health is something that I think I want to continue to pursue and keep going in, especially because it’s such an impactful situation in my generation, and I really hope to be able to create some change about that.,

Jay Ruderman:

A couple months ago, because we’re talking about combining art and activism, I interviewed a Ukrainian ballet dancer, Alexis Tutunek, who shared with me his perspective of how art can shift culture and actually create change. And I saw this as really, really powerful because it’s not just the message being directly thrown at you, but it’s coming in through art. Is that something that you’re always going to be committed to? That as you progress and become a more successful designer, that activism will always be part of what you do?

Ashlyn So:

I definitely think so. I think activism is now a part of me. Even at a young age, I still wanted everything to be full of love and full of good intention and positivity, and I still think now I want to continue to build my brand on that and on that message and being able to continue to intertwine art and activism together throughout my career.

Jay Ruderman:

Well, Ashlyn, I hope you go from success to success.

Ashlyn So:

Thank you.

Jay Ruderman:

And you’ve had an amazing career so far, and I’m sure you will be successful. Can you tell us a little bit about your website and how people can learn more about the work you’re doing or your social media and how they can watch what you’re doing?

Ashlyn So:

Yeah, so my social media on Instagram is Ashlynso_ and you can visit my work and my brand at ashlynso.com.

Jay Ruderman:

Thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening to All About Change. Today’s episode was produced by Tani Levitt and Mijan Zulu. Stay tuned for our next episode featuring Gary Sinise. Spread the word or leave us a review on your favorite podcasting app. We’d really appreciate it. That’s all for now. I’m Jay Ruderman, and we’ll see you soon with another episode of All About Change.